…… the page penned first has become unweildy at 5k words, hence this short intro as page two….. (Oct 2010, the previous first post is now looking and reading ‘very dated’ so I incorporate my revised ideas onto this page, leaving the former mainly ’as is’).
As at Oct 2010 I have deleted lots of silly dated text on this particular post and added more pics at the bottom (and will continue as more sites are visited) and I now have started posting slide shows and will link to them as a better more handleable blog. Each visit yields a hundred items on the camera, so there is far more than I paste here, I have tried to paste up a minimum of one pic per location though obviously a place like Weetwood needs all the numbered stones illustrated so as to form a coherent arguament. You must also realise that I am covering a lot of different ‘motifs’ some which may be the result of weathering more than others, like all early science at first its information gathering.
This blog describes my first finding flat bottomed hollows (fbh) and associated vertical drainage fissures (vdf) on rocks often linked with sites of prehistoric importance, I guess mesolithic to bronze age. In addition there are cups/hollows often found in clusters and always at the topmost part of the rock, ie Roughtinlinn main rock, Caller, Old Bewick main rock/s, Lordenshaws main rock and other features as detailed on the newest post above. ‘My stuff’ is only sometimes associated with cup and ring marks – at least from the evidence viewed, tho all are on the Fell Sandstone, a handy material for these magic marks and ritual.
At these sites for fbh and vdf on crags there can often be a sort of standardised or typical layout what I term a ‘ forward guard stone’ - a recent first visit to Bowden Doors (near Belford, Northumberland) as usual had this layout confirmed, easily guessed at even from a distance.
Duddo Stone Circle I feel is one of the finest examples of man made art I have ever seen, with deep cut gulleys (so very evenly spaced and parallel as per Caller fwd guard stone, Devils Arrows etc etc). Matfen stone and Warrior Stone Prudhoe look the same (tho never as yet visited) and many more around the landscape. I have bought a digital camera recently from ebay so a little vid would explain more for some sites. I hope word gets out and this new layer of worked rock adds weight to the importance of these sites so that the threat of nearby windfarms can be countered as per Barmoor and also tempering the zeal for excessive modernising of the land with needless stone clearance and disturbing an ancient and important and rare landscape.
There needs to be a sign at Roughtinlinn asking people not to walk on the rock.
It had been eighteen years since I was at Routinlinn and now I always walk up the road north to Barmoor, the peace and tranquility I enjoy there is very valuable to me. Wind turbines would destroy that. Saw a Merlin – my first ever – at Barmoor mid June. Turbines would surely reduce the bird population. I am very much on the fence re the merits, audited actual benefit that these things provide as a serious contribution to living on this planet. I plumb with James Lovelock on the the way forward. So, I suppose if you must have big ones them put them offshore. I also wonder about the engineering obselesence, repairs, spare parts …. for a century. It seems they have a working life of only a quarter century and have lots of non-recyclable materials. I also wonder what the transmission losses are at such low ‘electrical pressure’ and personally think they have it all wrong re wind catchment/ propellor design. I am all in favour of small turbines on farms and suitable dwellings tho its a very biased push that is being made for their installation on locations that should not be blighted by them. Again, put them offshore.
Routinlinn big rock has my larger cups on the topmost forward area along with drainage channels, forward to me being the direction of the sunset. Where they are located in Stans book has been left blank, yet these are the equal of cup and rings in my opinion and hardly if at all explored in the Northumbrian landscape. its often as to how and where they are located which makes me feel they are more than mere weathering.
Got up to Goatscrag Hill (2009) - a very important feature I think in the ancient landscape - rain dampened any adder threat so off I went with my dog and indeed possible vdf and fbh a plenty, tho the rock itself seems a softer more friable material, 3k years is a sure test of durability. When the bracken is down I’ll look at the fwd guard stone. These fwd guard stones are often pyramidal and big, say six to twelve feet tall at a rough guess. Along from Goatscrag Hill is Rabbit Braes (same as the small cave Gled Law) which after my first Weetwood musings confirmed to me I was on to something, again plenty of vdf and fbh tho I cannot get onto the upper rock surface of Rabbit Braes .. I cannot cope with heights.
If ’my stuff’ were placed around the landscape in a random higgledy piggledy fashion, some on edge and out of level or all skewed and perhaps sometimes covered by other rocks then I would have to be considered quite rightly a ‘nut’, yet however once you get a feel for these things its incredible how a location will conform to a set pattern and the rocks themselves so accurately in place. If its weathering how come it ain’t all over the place at odd angles and on odd bits of stone. It never is. Important looking and imposing stones reveal themselves to be just that, with ‘my stuff’ to match.
If my stuff is valid it would be a good idea to involve the Forestry Commission and climbers to report new finds/ areas. I would dearly like to find if this spreads beyond the Fell Sandstone and cup and ring areas.
Later in the year (’09) when the fields are stubble I need to get at the crags at the entrance to Duddo village, they too will probably have vdf and fbh (yup got there tho stone soft and v weathered). Using my imagination perhaps these features were used to hold an offering of blood or to drain a body before cremation – as it leaves the body it would spectacularly drain down the rock through the vdf to return to the earth … makes sense to me …… makes more sense than the crappy service at the crem! Later in 2010 I plumb on these features as holding cremated remains particularly the smaller ‘worship stones’ as per Weetwood hence their unique rounded/ worn forms. Another crazy possible idea might be that cup and ring on flat panels could be to ward off scavenging beasts such as wolf when killed game/ meat was being dressed or prepared. Or perhaps to ward off misfortune in general. I need to work up a seperate pop up discussion page for these possibilities.
The view from Bowden Doors is itself fantastic, the complete tract of cup and ring land is visible, Lordenshaws, (maybe Old Bewick peeping through) Ross Castle, Kettley is the next door hill, over to a distant though visible Goatscrag Hill with Weetwood and Dod Law and Horton just opposite. A valuable ancient landscape can be seen jutting out from a very manipulated sea of agricultural production. Thats why its vital to save these little islands of unimproved land among so much agricultural improvement.
I often feel that no-one has really considered cup and ring and their repeatability of execution from a craftsmans point of view, their very controlled depth and particular profile as in section, the carved and smoothed circling channels and sometimes with full and rounded tops like a sine wave profile, this is tool control and repeatability of a high order; yet they would already be good craftsmen for weapons, skins, tools. A little noticed feature such as a very controlled shallow sunk flat surface running from the centre as at Weetwood main panel is impressive and baffling. As is the change of style from a shallow ‘channel dominated’ manner on a flat surface as per Weetwood main panel to a deliberate raised form/ ring separated by grooves as per Kettley Crags. This changeover requires a whole new perception of what carving is by the maker. It is a move from graving, to material removal revealing an intended solid form. There are also instances of the rock (a carver calls the ‘ground’) that sometimes can be seen to have been cleared away, the rare raised ring motif south east of Weetwood main panel has this, like a mini Kettley Stone.
Update October 2009. Summer has gone so can get back into rough ground with the beagle. Been to Kyloe Hills, rock type is right and hey presto found fbh and vdf in typical forward leading edge, though I have doubts here. Exactly as per Rabbit Braes, Goatscrag, Caller, Bowden Doors, Duddo stones etc. There is reasoning going on behind these features. I think manmade and for a purpose. If this was weathering it would be more random and certainly not so uniform in appearance and location per site.
Kyloe Crags
Part of the group at Kyloe.
I think the connection with the Fell Sandstones is important and the location of this would be very significant to them. It roughly follows the coast so provides the best of both worlds for food, in three strands plus other bits ie Weetwood, Dod Law, Routinlin, then its Lordensaws to Caller Crags and Alnwick Moor then Old Bewick, Kyloe. Height is vital to be above your enemies or threats and if humans stuck to these areas at night or for dwelling help would be nearer than random scattering. Handy if you got lost perhaps, also below the Fell Sandstone it would be much wetter and boggier than it is now, so i suppose its natural you stay out the crap. The fell sandstone also provides a very handy source for big open flat panels of rock that is easily carved yet durable for your magic marks and ritual. Perhaps the position of a dominant tribe. And if theres no trees you can all see each other and have a better view of sunrise and sunset. This line of sight to other locations must have been important. ‘My stuff’ can often seem as if its deliberately placed to be seen, as on the top of a crag, a large standing stone type thing on a fellside or among a group of rocks as ‘the one’.
My latest theory occurred to me today after Kyloe yesterday (2009) as to what cup and ring might be for…. its life the universe and everything!! I think they are an illustration and explanation of the varying yet repeated seasons, depicting short days in relation to longer days, the motions of the Sun throughout the year ie the rings are the suns travel in winter and summer. Also the aspect of day and night is illustrated and how it always will return one to the other. To see this, half cover the diagram and hey presto there it is revealed. What you have covered up is night (you’ve actually made it dark) and what is visible are short days (ie small arcs) and long days ie summer. The channels might be a remnant of lets guess …. the vdf which perhaps were earlier or a channel is a more suitable thing for a low flat panel. I guess a means of returning something to mother earth. So why are there varying numbers of ring marks and not a set number? …. well perhaps they had no strict need to have an exact number. These people would be heavily into nature and possibly we assume the spirit world so symbolism surely must have been important to them. Adding some words here Nov 2010 I currently feel cup and ring is fertility and forward thinking (perhaps the earliest raising of crops) and ‘my stuff’ perhaps is for the dead, returning them to the earth after cremation.
6th November 2009 takes me to Cuddys Cave…. first peep of rock …. its got ‘em. A very typical layout of some vdf on main crag edge so very similar to so many sites viewed before and this time two forward guard stones. Cups very similar to so many other sites, particularly Roughtinlinn. Vdf very impressive as per Duddo and Matfen and others, which I now call deep cut gulleys. So very parallel and uniform, its very hard to consider this as ‘just’ weathering.
vdf @ cuddys cave
split stone @ cuddys cave top surface southern fwd guard stone cuddys cave
complete view southern fwd guard stone cuddys cave
detail of southern fwd guard stone @ cuddys cave
November 12th 2009 …. Doddington Moor stone circle was incredible, the one standing having fbh and vdf as per Duddo, one of the fallen stones yielded very impressive enclosed central cup with radiating vdf and a Duddo style waisting. Started from the northern end of the moor, ended up at Gled Law and a crag and fwd guard stone arrgt. Couldn’t get over with beagle to Horton and Buttony cup and ring due to livestock in fields, another time perhaps, tho c&r are not my primary objective.
Doddington Moor seems so vulnerable, already a bizarre golf course despoils one side of it and looking from Bowden Doors Doddington Moor rises like a tiny island in a vast sea of intense agricultural improvement. I wonder what formal protection the land has?
Standing stone part of circle at Doddington Moor.
one of doddington moor stone circle .. note cup and radiating vdf .. these are not weathering .. actual man made for a purpose .. and not 'art'.
The above is a stunner. Please never replace upright .. that would be phoney (a Salinger word) keep it as it is, that way is more honest and truthful. Its ‘waisted’ as per Duddo and is an object of great beauty. Perhaps this is why c&r have the central cup (a crossover perhaps) its part of the working stone, not art.
doddington moor stone circle, cups and vdf .... all man made.
Crag and fwd guard stone .... a typical layout .... Gled Law ie south of Doddington Moor.
Fwd guard stone Gled Law. vdf fbh/cups ... not weathering.
The above fwd guard stone is so similar to ditto at Cuddys Cave, Colourheugh and elsewhere. I’ve just been looking at Duddo stone circle, other peoples pics, and am bugged by the reference to Cheviot, I think Duddos importance is at the termination of the Fell Sandstone. Strange no-one can see its all man made, not only art but stones with a function ie fbh and vdf (my terminology) and deep cut gulleys. I also similarly think the Simonside connection is vastly overated, its more to do with the interconnectedness of the sites themselves.
30th Nov 2009; Cockenheugh (Colourheugh too) provided more of the now to be expected vdf and more myriads of cups than fbh. The whole escarpement of Fell Sandstone has good examples, one fbh and vdf unusually at the mouth of the biggest cave, excellnt fwd guard stones. Yet agn the siting of these in my opinion most likely man made features is what convinces me. It was raining, digital camera not focusing to well, heres the first batch of pics….
cockenheugh
cockenheugh
cockenheugh
a bad pic, will have to do for now .. fwd guard stone cockenheugh
The latter pic, bad as it is, records the very evenly spaced vdf on this fwd guard stone, from a mass of cups on the top surface, so very like southern guard stone C Cave and elsewhere. As expected all vdf to rear of this stone face outwards, becoming a very predictable layout and becoming more convincing that all this cannot be explained away as weathering. If it was weathering I would not be seeing repeated layouts and repeated styles.
Postscript 25th Oct 2010: I’ll post a few more pics as tasters as they occur, tho have unfortunately a few months ago wiped 6k items off the machine due to virus, a lot of them never posted onto here, so I’ll probably now add to the bottom of this page with links to slideshows and vids on my preferred youku (Chinese) hosting site.
cuddys cave
cockenheugh
caller split
caller
caller crags
nanny feltons cairn / bigges' pillar
Wide Hope, Edlingham.
titlington mount monolith/ standing stone
titlington mount/ beanley moor 'worship stone'
lordenshaws worship stone
lordenshaws huge long channel with cups at top
the poind and his man.... the man
cups? ...upper crag from poind and his man
dancing green hill
cockenheugh
blawearie
blawearie
blawearie
blawearie
blawearie
Cartington Hill
Soulby
Mount Pleasant
Wellhope / Shirlaw
Shirlaw / Debdon Whitefield
Placed rock (smaller) Wolf Hole, has 'my stuff'.
Placed rock (larger) Wolf Hole, has 'my stuff'.
Chattonpark Hill buried under field clearance.
my stuff?? .....vdf on the kettley stone.
Kettley Crags.
Best example so far, 'my stuff' with cup and ring .... Kettley Crags.
Kettley Crags.
Here below are rocks 6, 7, 8 and 10 Weetwood, which I term ‘worship stones’ .. very rounded and smoothed as if worked so. Firstly rock 4 which along with rock 6 a decade or so ago got me thinking ……
Weetwood rock 4
rock 6 Weetwood .... termed 'worship stone'
rock 7 Weetwood .... termed 'worship stone'
rock 8 Weetwood .... termed 'worship stone'
one of the group of three ...rock 9 Weetwood .... termed 'worship stone'
rock 10 Weetwood .... termed 'worship stone'
Nov 2010 ….. There are so many angles on what these can be and and so many questions, both cup and ring and ‘my stuff’ and most likely always will be. They are certainly the product of a skilled hand, cup and ring looking to be the work of a specialist rather than anyone in the neighbourhood that fancied a go. Its the distinction in style between those on a flat surface and those on a curved surface that fascinates me. Were c and r employed more in good or ‘even’ times or did they gain max use when things were on the downturn? I wish I knew how tied in they were with magic, hunting, good fortune, special powers. …..perhaps that is all there is to it, a rattlebag of those things. The motif itself must have been very powerful to them. I read recently in Paul Frodshams book that hallucinogenics can produce concentric rings and herringbone patterns (ie my spine and rib). However the point of digging was raised and I am afraid I am very much a ‘no dig’ man, after an excavation the site to my mind seems so much worse for it. I much prefer and enjoy seeing them as only three or four thousand years can make them look. There is also the point that in a hundred years time dear knows what scientific advances will have been made to add to the interpretation.
I am only an ordinary self taught man having near zero knowledge on prehistory yet I realise it is vital to get the chronology right of an area, possibly 4k years could separate visible remains on a location. For instance a hillfort ie defensive earthwork within a hundred yards of a rock with cup and ring, it could be the c and r are 4k BC and the hill fort 400AD. The makers of one might never have known what the other was for.
How long did it take to build up each c and r assemblage, weeks, years, centuries? The work of anyone or the work of special men (I go for the latter)?
‘My stuff’ ie fbh and vdf and other features have been collected as a mixture of anything I can find, now at Feb 2011 I am realising some may not neccassarilly be connected with the others. This is where the clever stuff comes in, to break down the fancied relevance and connections between one and the other into nearer the facts. For instance fwd guard stones at Bowden Doors and Caller are very powerful arguaments, its not just the object it is its siting that adds weight to this idea.
Are cup and ring resorted to as a celebration of good fortune or produced in fear of worsening circumstances? I wonder what the tie-in is with hunting grounds?
‘My stuff’ seldom if ever occurs other than full on and visible, the only intermediates (or doubtful ones) are on rock that itself seems more liable to erosion, a slightly softer material.
‘My stuff’ is always at the topmost or forward part of the rock. This is a very strong indicator to me that it cannot just be weathering.
‘My stuff’ can often follow a set layout, ie fwd guard stone when associated with crags, smaller worship stones dotted around as at Weetwood and Lordenshaws, edge of crag as at Cuddys Cave, Rabbit Braes.
The skill in execution is greater than most people realise both my stuff and cup and ring. I would guess more the work of specialists, perhaps creating their ‘magic places’. Cup and ring is subject to variations that seldom seem explored.
As there are no breakages seen in my stuff (ie operator error) I guess it was an abrasion process more than a chipping process.
Do cup and ring depict or display something felt, perceived in the minds eye or held to exist as a force or being?
The big word is magic. At Jan 2011 I have discarded cup and ring as motion of the Sun and am now wondering if its possibly some magic for invisibility in hunting, certainly makes sense when one leads a totally outdoors life.
I feel when these were produced people were looking inward rather than to the distant hills, such as barren Cheviot or Simonside. Rather, the sun and seasons were more important.
Is ‘my stuff’ concurrent, before or after cup and ring? The three big rock/s at Roughtin Linn, Lordenshaws, Blawearie all have at their uppermost points no cup and ring …. just ‘my stuff’. This is another convincincing point to ‘my stuff’ not just being weathering.
I wonder what part does the sun and the moon played in the makers psyche. How closely their movement and appearance was noted.
I think its safe to say they are all upland, all on the Fell Sandstone both c and r and my stuff. A very workable and yet durable material. Always on the skyline.
Weetwood main panel is so flat a surface, did this matter to them, perhaps not, yet there seems a desire to have a big surface for them ie as at Chatton Park Hill.
Cup and ring can be associated with death and burial and with cists reading from Stans books. As yet not sure where my stuff fits in to this. Cists are maybe for the important people as perhaps were beaker burials, so if my worship stone theory holds water perhaps ordinary folk were dealt with differently. Again, getting the chronology correct is vital, 4k years can separate ‘ancient remains’ at the one site.
Generally held to be associated with fertility, cup and ring to my mind presently display the idea idea for the motion on the sun, winter through summer (cover half and see the suns altering arcs and how it dips out of sight for night) thereby explaining the seasons. Perhaps when early crops were raised for grain (brewing?) the fear was always there of a poor harvest, a bad year. So perhaps cup and ring remind and explain the celestial mechanism of its seasonal rythmn. Perhaps the rings protected the central cup, the person. So perhaps we have symbols/ magic marks ie cup and ring and ‘my stuff’ for offerings or returning the dead.
The above pictures are just a tiny portion of what there is, what follows is a link to slideshows from each trip out to a specific location. Interestingly I grew up on the coast and weekend nights my Dad would take us to various coastline destinations, so I grew uplooking at coastal weathered rocks. I think that helps me realise these are perhaps something else.
Heres a link to The Devils Arrows at Boroughbridge, got ‘my stuff’ (deep cut gulleys) as per Duddo, Caller fwd guard stone, Poind and his Man, Matfen, Amerside north, etc. http://www.stone-circles.org.uk/stone/devilsarrows.htm
Heres a link to the Matfen Stone… http://www.stockphotopro.com/photo_of/the/B7FE7F/Standing_stone_just_outside
Update June 2011, I am continuing to find ‘my stuff ‘ in the landscape and in some cases its a foregone conclusion what I will find and where. A typical case was this weeks jaunt to Coe Crags Wood which needed to be recce’d….. a single block perched as per Wolfhole a mile away had ‘my stuff’, another prominent rock nearby also had it, both having my stuff at the point I would expect it, a combination of facing south and/or over wide open landscape. So we conjecture, these are to be seen. I’ve also just googled Fryup Dale (near where I was born) and found the stone at Danby Rigg on the North Yorkshire Moors, from what the photograph shows me it has ‘my stuff’ too, it could well be that the notch drains from a flat bottomed hollow, tho this is not absolutely essential. Having wandered among barrows and cairns I am becoming increasingly ‘no dig’ in that I much prefer them to be left alone, I cannot see the point of accumulating another jet bead and crumbled pot to the collection.
Wade Stone, Kettleness … http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/89310
The Margery Bradley Stone cld well be…
Oh my goodness, an hour googling gives this … http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/francestuzec.htm and they are sufficiently open minded to mention the parallel lines being similar to the Devils Arrows Boroughbridge and the unlikeliness of it being weathering.
I still need to see pictures or video of the tops of the lintels at Stonehenge, again, looks like my stuff.
Machrie Moor, Arran … www.megalithic.org.uk/a558/a312/gallery/scotl..
July 20th 2011… I cannot help but include the pic below taken a few months ago on an 8th Feb jaunt. I have many pictures (hundreds if not thousands) I have not bothered to upload, this morning found this again and it illustrates perfectly how one of mine is so easily recognisable, centre uppermost. There is no other stone in this shot that has ‘my stuff’ except this prominent one, no other bits of any weathering whatsover other than this screamingly obvious example of ‘my stuff’. At this narrow defile it also has the customary perched rock/s nearby and also my stuff above the gorge at the entrance as you walk upstream. This again is repeated a third of a mile upstream at Dove Crags. Its as if it is all to a set layout. This pic just south of Blawearie hillfort. There is a high concentration of my stuff in this area with superb examples.
The one with 'my stuff' is so obvious once you have spotted it.
Nov 2011 …. I’ve deliberately postponed one of the most obvious places to look till the end ie Corbys Crags. Seems to have a ‘placed stone’ on mid level but not quite the vdf I had hoped for to be definitely ‘one of mine’. C&r in Lemmington Wood didn’t seem right and i wonder till how recently country folk used the old runic style numerals; yan tan tethera etc is still in folk memory at least in Cumbria so what are the marks to go with them?
Ed Moor
Corbys Crags ... 'my stuff'.
Corbys Crags ... my stuff.
Corbys Crags ... my stuff.
part of the rocks 1-3 ie new group found Weetwood 2011
Tags: barmoor, bowden doors, caller crags, carnac, cockenheugh, coldmartin, corby crags, corbys crags, cuddys cave, cup and ring, danby rigg, doddington moor, duddo, duddo stone circle, duddo stones, goatscrag hill, horton, kyloe hills, lowick, machrie moor arran, matfen stone, merlin, no to windfarms, old bewick, prehistoric art, prehistoric belief systems, prehistoric rock carvings, rabbit braes, ross castle, roughtinlinn, stone circle, wade stone kettleness, weetwood
